Dunnar

World Cup 2018

27 posts in this topic

The US lost ... and failed to qualify.

Since my team lost, the next logical step would be to side with Wolph and root for the Dutch.  However, the Dutch also lost ... and failed to qualify.

With the biggest sporting event in the world coming up, I am now a free agent and I'm looking for a team to root for.  I could go with my family roots and support for Germany.  Not sure why, but it doesn't feel right.  Maybe a WW2 thing, don't know.  I could go with folks here and support England ... although I don't get the sense Jazz or Pas get into it.

The Americans losing and failing to qualify is a complete joke.  Everyone involved should be ashamed of themselves.  Hell, I'm ashamed.  The billion dollar MLS investment doesn't seem to be working out.  With the amount of resources that has poured into the sport ... and they lose to an island nation that is roughly the size of Rhode Island with a population less than Nashville.

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2. The most embarrassing performance in U.S. history?

No doubt, yes.

Heading into the match, everything was lining up for the U.S. to qualify; only a massive collapse would prevent qualification. A win would clinch the third and final qualification spot, while the colossal U.S. advantage in goal differential over Panama (seven) and Honduras (12) meant a tie would almost certainly do the trick.

Only a loss and an outright win by either the Canaleros or the Catrachos could knock the U.S. out of third place. T&T, meanwhile, was already eliminated, with manager Dennis Lawrence opting mostly for younger players in a bid to build for the future.

Yet the U.S. somehow contrived to blow this opportunity. Yes, the Americans have suffered humbling defeats before. Heck, the 1980s were littered with them. But this defeat stands alone.

Yes, the U.S. has lost to T&T before, but that was during the 2010 cycle when progress from the semifinal round was already assured. This time the U.S had everything to gain. But it also had plenty to lose, and evidently that was too much of a burden for an emotionally fragile team to carry.

Here's who is in so far:

EUROPE

  • Belgium
  • England
  • France
  • Germany
  • Iceland
  • Poland
  • Portugal
  • Russia (hosts)
  • Serbia
  • Spain

SOUTH AMERICA

  • Brazil
  • Uruguay
  • Argentina
  • Colombia

AFRICA

  • Egypt
  • Nigeria

ASIA

  • Iran
  • Japan
  • Saudi Arabia
  • South Korea

NORTH, CENTRAL AMERICA AND CARIBBEAN

  • Costa Rica
  • Mexico
  • Panama
Edited by Dunnar

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Yeah, Canada never qualifies and the Dutch have crapped the bed since the last World Cup...seriously can't win versus even mediocre teams :(

(Edit..) Oh, it seems Slovakia makes it, if I am reading this properly. Of course, I cheer for my fatherland :P

Also, I basically cheer against the divers again (Italy, Brazil, Argentina, Spain, etc)

 

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 I think a large part of the problem is the lack of support for a genuine youth system that favors talent as opposed to economic resources.

 

So many elite soccer academies and clubs have prohibitively high  entry fees and tuition.  If you’re not a part of these, the odds of getting scouted by a pro team are slim. When you consider all the untapped potential and talent in the immigrant communities, whether Latin American, African, or otherwise, there is considerable talent that for whatever socioeconomic imbalance, is not able to be fully developed. 

 

Another consideration is that college soccer has such liberal rules, that the style of play is not suited to anyone who would go on to play at the international level. And, the NCAA talent pool is not the same as the USSF Youth Team System (e.g., U-23).  There isn’t really a well demarcated infrastructure where one can trace a professional soccer player from youth to career, the same way it would exist in Europe. Even in another American sports such as NFL Football or basketball, it is much easier to trace. 

 

You can can throw money at a problem, but when there’s no infrastructure that genuinely cultivates the youth and puts them in an environment that forces them to grow (NOT the MLS, with salary caps and little incentive to post results and work hard towards a better contract if you’re not a (often the case) foreign designated player), then what can you expect. Well, a World Cup without the US.

 

As an American born child of Mexican immigrants and grandson of Spanish diaspora (not to mention a German girlfriend,) there’s plenty of teams for me to cheer on. Even then, great club players we know and love will be there for their countries. There will be no shortage of talent and interesting matches, in my humble opinion :) 

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10 hours ago, MirrodinTech said:

 I think a large part of the problem is the lack of support for a genuine youth system that favors talent as opposed to economic resources.

 

So many elite soccer academies and clubs have prohibitively high  entry fees and tuition.  If you’re not a part of these, the odds of getting scouted by a pro team are slim. When you consider all the untapped potential and talent in the immigrant communities, whether Latin American, African, or otherwise, there is considerable talent that for whatever socioeconomic imbalance, is not able to be fully developed. 

 

Another consideration is that college soccer has such liberal rules, that the style of play is not suited to anyone who would go on to play at the international level. And, the NCAA talent pool is not the same as the USSF Youth Team System (e.g., U-23).  There isn’t really a well demarcated infrastructure where one can trace a professional soccer player from youth to career, the same way it would exist in Europe. Even in another American sports such as NFL Football or basketball, it is much easier to trace. 

 

You can can throw money at a problem, but when there’s no infrastructure that genuinely cultivates the youth and puts them in an environment that forces them to grow (NOT the MLS, with salary caps and little incentive to post results and work hard towards a better contract if you’re not a (often the case) foreign designated player), then what can you expect. Well, a World Cup without the US.

 

As an American born child of Mexican immigrants and grandson of Spanish diaspora (not to mention a German girlfriend,) there’s plenty of teams for me to cheer on. Even then, great club players we know and love will be there for their countries. There will be no shortage of talent and interesting matches, in my humble opinion :) 

So NCAA soccer is different than what is played in the Olympics?  and what is played in the World Cup?  I guess I never knew that.  As a soccer imbecile, can you enlighten me on how it is different?

And now that you mention it, you never hear about NCAA soccer players doing anything.  Strictly talking about the men.  The women are doing great.  Like I know Ali K went to Penn St, Hamm to NC, and the future Mrs Dunnar (aka Alex Morgan) went to Cal.  But the guys ... not a clue.  You would think with all of those D1 players/programs that we should produce a competitive team.  Hell, we have missed the last 2 Olympics which is entirely U23 players ... which is the NCAA wheel house.

The NCAA is enough of a farm system for every other sport to make us competitive.  Hockey, basketball, track, swimming, golf, all down the line.  Hell, even wrestling ... which is itself has completely different High School rules from college from International ... that produces competitive athletes on the highest stage.  But for some reason, all those kids playing soccer doesn't translate into any success on the world stage.

Can someone tell me what the difference is?  I confess, I have never watched an NCAA or MLS soccer game.  I know nothing of the strategies involved on that level.  So dumb it down.  Are the fields different sizes?  Hockey rinks are different, but that doesn't seem to matter much.  (on a side note: I LOVE Olympic hockey and it sucks that the NHL pulled out.)

3 hours ago, Pasanda said:

Ingerlund!!!

lol ... I had to google that to confirm you meant England.

@Wolphard ... you are awfully quiet on this subject.  Still trying to digest your teams loss?  Are you going to be completely neutral during this WC?

Edited by Dunnar

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43 minutes ago, Wolphard said:

Main problem, imo, is the rigid training system at clubs, amateur & professional alike. Boys who are 10-12 years old are expected to adhere to team tactics, work hard, and win. Youth coaches treat football like playing chess. And that's not the way to get good players. Just send those kids out into the meadow to have a good time and get technical. Take Arjen Robben, who announced his international retirement this week, he was horrible to play with when he was a kid. Always wanted the ball, always wanted to get past his direct opponent, never made the tactical pass, lost the ball 90% of the time some matches. But that's the way to get better. He was still a cocky little punk when playing at FC Groningen, but grew up fast at PSV. Only to continue developing into probably the best of his generation. At 33 he's still able to secure a place in the starting 11 at Bayern München. 

Interesting take.  It sounds like a lot of the arguments I read about US soccer.  Its often said that we produce players that lack any creativity.

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The American soccer system is built around profitizing the product.  MLS players are so damn arrogant, no one cares if they win or lose. The clubs make money so there is no drive to change.

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2 hours ago, MirrodinTech said:

@Dunnar

Sorry, were you being sincere, sarcastic, or facetious? I genuinely can’t tell.

I was being sincere ... for once :D

I am genuinely curious about why we can't field a decent soccer team.  We have a pro league, dam near every kid plays soccer, hell, I coached my daughters team for years.  We have 200+ D1 programs and can't even make the Olympics when they restrict it to U23.  Obviously what we are doing as a developmental country isn't working on the worlds best stage.  What is it?

And to Jag's take ... I don't think its about profit.  Maybe on the pro level.  But the NCAA isn't about profit with soccer.  None of the NCAA programs are profitable with soccer.  If they were about profit, they would want those kids would make the Olympics and be successful.  Think Kyle Snyder at Ohio State ... him winning a gold medal in Wrestling has generated more interest in that program than anything else they have ever done, including winning the NCAA team title. 

And its not that we are bad ... its that we are so bad we can't even qualify for a 16 team U23 tournament.  Honduras makes it.  Mexico makes it.  It is an inferior tournament that has limits around pros and we can't even qualify for it.

EDIT: And to top it off, the US is in the easiest region (CONCACAF) to qualify in.

Edited by Dunnar
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One problem Canada has is that our team isn't great so we actually have players take advantage of dual citizenship to play for a "better" team elsewhere. Does this happen with the States too?

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Some do.  There is enough money here now to keep a lot of our best players playing in the states, however this makes them complacent because winning is not a priority.  This is because of some weird points system that doesn't make any sense to me.  It hurts the competitive nature of the sport.  Isn't MLS a USA/Canadian league like hockey?  We both have the same issues.

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3 hours ago, Dunnar said:

I am genuinely curious about why we can't field a decent soccer team.  ... hell, I coached my daughters team for years. 

Ask and answer your own question.  A Brown's fan coaching soccer. Lookit yer role models.   :unsure:

3 hours ago, Dunnar said:

I was being sincere ... for once :D

Not me.  :P

Edited by Elovia
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Every single youth prospect in our country is brought up in a terrible for profit club system.  Only privileged kids, for the most part, can afford to take part in it.  Entitlement is the foundation of US soccer.  That is why it fails. At the youth soccer level, winning drives revenue so it is prioritized over development.  You might think that one leads to the other, but it does not.  Many people more educated than I on the issues have written endlessly about it.  A quick google will harvest a lot of commentary on the matter.

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In the pro's, they just don't give a crap about development or winning.  In youth winning is prioritized over development.  Risk taking is discouraged, it is the same situation you explained with your Dutch.

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Men’s college soccer D1 is nonexistent.  It is not a scholarship sport.  You have to go to smaller schools that don’t have football programs.  

And youth soccer is expensive for good coaching.

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Anyone watching?

I've had it on a lot.  Not necessarily glued to the screen but there have been spurts where I have watched.

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What is the difference between a tea bag and the Dutch National Soccer team?

 

 

 

 

 

 

The tea bag stays in the cup longer!

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