Lasraik

Made the mistake of checking Twitter last night...

44 posts in this topic

So during my weekly #FridayMTG posts on Twitter, I started checking some of the tweets in my time line (or whatever it's called) and the torches and pitchforks are out.  I didn't realize or maybe I forgot how much hostility and toxicity (to steal their buzzword) there is on the "Twittter MTG Community"

Looks like Jeremy did something that resulted in Sparkle to stop cosplaying, I'm still not 100% sure what he said because I'm too lazy and uninterested to track it down.  I made a tweet that was something to the effect of lets all help each other, spend our energy on positivity and don't give trolls what they crave: attention.  Of course that was met with "he's toxic and a harasser and has to have his DCI banned and banned from never using social media again!"   Both sides are hurling insults at each other, and it made me glad I'm ignorant to all the drama that goes on.  I focus on having fun playing MTG and meeting new people/fostering the friendships I have online and locally in MTG circles.

Don't feed the trolls is some of the best advice you'll get when you're on the internet and on social media.  Papa Mage said it perfectly:

 

Look, of course I'm not in support of people who shitpost and are hateful to other people but those people thrive on the chaos and attention they get.  Don't give them what they want. 

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I think the general idea is that Jeremy posts hateful videos about everyone in the community and then his fans follow suit and harass everyone he decides to hate this particular week.  Beyond that, I don't know, I stopped watching Jeremy's videos months ago.

As for the Twitter stuff, yeah, honestly, there is no place right now for an intellectual discussion over there. It's just a parade of barbaric grunting and fist-raising, I'm staying way the out of it.  At the very start of it I made a post in one of The Prof's threads saying that responding to bullying and harassment with more bullying and harassment was only going to make things worse. After an inflammatory comment or 2 I just deleted the tweet and stepped out of it.

Since people are a bit less emotional here I'll just say that I think Sprankle was super cool, and the fact that she was bullied out of the community is absolutely not okay. I definitely think that the people directly associated with her harassment should be condemned for their actions, and the same is true for anyone who harasses someone to that extent.

However, I don't like the concept of "We should make our community as inclusive as possible. Let's start by driving the people we don't like out of it."  Not because I think bigotry should be tolerated, but because if you encourage a group of people to drive out the ones that they disapprove of then the entire community devolves into chaos. I'm sure every single person could be justifiably driven out of the community in another person's mind, and if we tell people "you're allowed to hate certain people because it's justifiable" then all it really does is encourage people to harass and bully the people that they specifically disapprove of. Since everyone has a different opinion about who should or shouldn't be in the community, you're basically opening the floodgates of hate, which will end up drowning the lot of us.

Again, not saying bigotry should be tolerated, but when your message is "Kick out the people who are ruining Magic" when everyone has a different definition of who is doing that, it's just a slippery slope to do gown.

Although, as someone who only plays MTGO, none of this really affects me regardless, so you guys have fun with it. :P

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Well said.  I always try to stay away from the nonsense and had a lapse in judgement by making a tweet about it, ended up deleting mine too.  

Im hopeful Sparkle comes back, shes getting lots of support.

Ive never been a fan of Jeremys videos, he thrives on the drama and outrage. 

Just want to give some credit to @MTGZuby for having his wife on a recent podcast of his when she spoke about her experiences at game stores.  It gave me a different perspective on the situation.

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13 hours ago, Affinity for MTG said:


However, I don't like the concept of "We should make our community as inclusive as possible. Let's start by driving the people we don't like out of it."  Not because I think bigotry should be tolerated, but because if you encourage a group of people to drive out the ones that they disapprove of then the entire community devolves into chaos. I'm sure every single person could be justifiably driven out of the community in another person's mind, and if we tell people "you're allowed to hate certain people because it's justifiable" then all it really does is encourage people to harass and bully the people that they specifically disapprove of. Since everyone has a different opinion about who should or shouldn't be in the community, you're basically opening the floodgates of hate, which will end up drowning the lot of us.

Again, not saying bigotry should be tolerated, but when your message is "Kick out the people who are ruining Magic" when everyone has a different definition of who is doing that, it's just a slippery slope to do gown.
 

I think this point is missed by a lot of people in the community. Yes harrassing/bullying people is wrong, especially if they end up feeling so bad about it that they leave the community, but being tolerant is not the same as being intolerant of intolerance (it's that old classic "2 wrongs don't make a right" basically)

Nobody should be excluded from playing Magic because of their opinions expressed online. Actual harrassment at an event, or during a match on MODO, is already covered by DCI/MODO rules and should be punished. Other than that, all players should walk through the door into an event equal in the eyes of Wizards and TOs- unless you are already suspended for some reason, you can play until we have evidence you have done something wrong while participating in an event

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What actually happened? I know that MTG HQ is accused of saying/threatening something to Sprangle, but what actually was said? I live my MTG life the same as my personal life. I see drama and I do a 180 and avoid it like the plague. But it seems this has become a point of divide in the mtg community and possibly a turning point for the game as a whole as a result. Personally, I view Jeremy from MTG HQ as the Howard Stern of the MTG world. He says whatever will get people riled up. 

 

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1 hour ago, ChuckWagonMTG said:

What actually happened? I know that MTG HQ is accused of saying/threatening something to Sprangle, but what actually was said?

 

I could be wrong, but I THINK this is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ffr3fUbJ15E

I haven't watched it, but the comment section says enough, to be honest. I think you get the idea just by reading through a few of those. She was basically being barraged by THAT.  I can certainly see why that would make someone want out.

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12 minutes ago, Affinity for MTG said:

I could be wrong, but I THINK this is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ffr3fUbJ15E

I haven't watched it, but the comment section says enough, to be honest. I think you get the idea just by reading through a few of those. She was basically being barraged by THAT.  I can certainly see why that would make someone want out.

Wow. Okay. It makes sense now.

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7 hours ago, ChuckWagonMTG said:

What actually happened? I know that MTG HQ is accused of saying/threatening something to Sprangle, but what actually was said? I live my MTG life the same as my personal life. I see drama and I do a 180 and avoid it like the plague. But it seems this has become a point of divide in the mtg community and possibly a turning point for the game as a whole as a result. Personally, I view Jeremy from MTG HQ as the Howard Stern of the MTG world. He says whatever will get people riled up. 

 

Here's on of the links being passed around on Twitter: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5j4c4ed8r2d8x5m/AABCjyKqaUYpizhTBN4b3DdLa?dl=0

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In all honesty, it's getting to the point for me that either I delete twitter and carry on making content or think about stepping away from this game. I'd still create content but probably for another hobby of mine, but ever since I've been creating there really hasn't been many days where drama or politics hasn't taken over my twitter feed. This forum has been a safe haven and I've met and talked to a lot of great people, but in all honesty the current situation is getting out of hand and it's hard to want to stay connected to a game with a community that is this problematic (again I'm talking about twitter not this forum or the people on it).

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Usually I try and stay out of the drama but I've been following it pretty closely. Does Jeremy deserve the death threats he has received? Of course not. What I do find sad is he doesn't seem to realize he brings all this fury and wrath upon himself. The Professor's video explained it greatly. Even though it may not have been Jeremy himself that made Sprankle quit, it was his videos, his words, his reach that incited his followers to act accordingly. 

I think at least Jeremy will be DCI banned from WoTC but other than that not sure what else WoTC could really do, Jeremy is going to take being DCI banned and proclaim himself a martyr for his side of the community. The hate mob going on on both sides is scary but this is one point where I may have to lean towards TCC and TMS's side of the aisle. Though "toxicity" exists at all levels of MTG, it needs to be battled the most at the local level as I've stated time and time again.

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On 11/25/2017 at 2:03 PM, Affinity for MTG said:

However, I don't like the concept of "We should make our community as inclusive as possible. Let's start by driving the people we don't like out of it."  Not because I think bigotry should be tolerated, but because if you encourage a group of people to drive out the ones that they disapprove of then the entire community devolves into chaos. I'm sure every single person could be justifiably driven out of the community in another person's mind, and if we tell people "you're allowed to hate certain people because it's justifiable" then all it really does is encourage people to harass and bully the people that they specifically disapprove of. Since everyone has a different opinion about who should or shouldn't be in the community, you're basically opening the floodgates of hate, which will end up drowning the lot of us.

Your post was too long @Affinity for MTG. I want you the fuck out of my community.

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As just a player and fan of the game, this situation bothers me a lot. Why is anyone attacking a person for enjoying a game that they like?

Everyone enjoys entertainment in different ways, none of it should be personal. The only time I may attack a person is if you legit do something to my cards without my permission, since you would be potentially damaging my property.

Other then that you can curb-stop my best deck and I will still shake your hand and may even give you a compliment. You can make fun of my hockey jersey (I wear them to all competitive events I go to) and i still will shake your hand at the end of the game. You can even call me 4 eyes (I wear glasses), Doom Blade my Gideon Jira, tell me what Venser need to shave and that Sun Titan can burn in a Terminate Hell, and I would still shake their hand at the end of the game.

My point is I don't care who you are,  you are playing a game that I enjoy and I would never harass or bully you for any choices you have made either in life or in the game. I may make my own first (second, third, fourth, ... ) impressions of you but will keep them to myself.

 

EDIT: If anyone wants a good convo on twitter, hit me up.. I'll talk about anything.

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4 hours ago, Mark_LifeBeginsAt20 said:

In all honesty, it's getting to the point for me that either I delete twitter and carry on making content or think about stepping away from this game. I'd still create content but probably for another hobby of mine, but ever since I've been creating there really hasn't been many days where drama or politics hasn't taken over my twitter feed. This forum has been a safe haven and I've met and talked to a lot of great people, but in all honesty the current situation is getting out of hand and it's hard to want to stay connected to a game with a community that is this problematic (again I'm talking about twitter not this forum or the people on it).

I've had moments myself this weekend (I shouldn't have tried to keep up with the drama as much as I have) that I thought maybe I should just walk away from it too because of all the hostility.  Before Friday I had no idea any of this was going on, but the level of nastiness goes from 0 - 1000 on Twitter in a matter of minutes.  Maybe some of it is deserved, but I think most reasonable people can agree both sides are getting out of hand.  Usually I stay far away from Twitter and if not for it helping (wondering if it helps at all now) promote the forum and #FridayMTG I would delete it right now.  It's never been a fun place for me to visit, and it's one of the reasons I started this forum.  

Then I saw this tweet from @MirrodinTech 

I try to remember why I play this game in the first place and all the great people I've met because of it.  The Twitter "community" is a small representation of the total number of players, most players don't know about this drama or who these YouTubers are; they just enjoy playing Magic.

Some stores just aren't inviting or full of cliques.  You're always going to have those players who aren't friendly, but I've thankfully found an LGS that is pretty welcoming.  When I go there it's people talking about what they've done the last week or the new deck they've built ect.  I credit @Magonista66 for helping foster that environment.

The rule I always try to follow is: don't be an asshole, treat everyone with respect.  One of my old bosses used to always tell me "be the change you want to see" and I used to think she just read it on a motivational poster somewhere but the older I get the more it makes sense.

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6 hours ago, MTGZuby said:

Usually I try and stay out of the drama but I've been following it pretty closely. Does Jeremy deserve the death threats he has received? Of course not. What I do find sad is he doesn't seem to realize he brings all this fury and wrath upon himself. The Professor's video explained it greatly. Even though it may not have been Jeremy himself that made Sprankle quit, it was his videos, his words, his reach that incited his followers to act accordingly. 

I think at least Jeremy will be DCI banned from WoTC but other than that not sure what else WoTC could really do, Jeremy is going to take being DCI banned and proclaim himself a martyr for his side of the community. The hate mob going on on both sides is scary but this is one point where I may have to lean towards TCC and TMS's side of the aisle. Though "toxicity" exists at all levels of MTG, it needs to be battled the most at the local level as I've stated time and time again.

WOTC/Hasbro could very well file motions to YouTube to remove any of his content featuring MTG, or pepper him with enough legal annoyance to affect his wallet.

 

Honestly, this is reason #100+ that I barely use twitter any longer... very little of positive value, and so much hate, whining, bullying, and other nonsense. I appreciate this forum much more. 

 

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10 minutes ago, JesGolbez said:

WOTC/Hasbro could very well file motions to YouTube to remove any of his content featuring MTG, or pepper him with enough legal annoyance to affect his wallet.

 

Honestly, this is reason #100+ that I barely use twitter any longer... very little of positive value, and so much hate, whining, bullying, and other nonsense. I appreciate this forum much more. 

 

:wub:

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7 hours ago, Mark_LifeBeginsAt20 said:

In all honesty, it's getting to the point for me that either I delete twitter and carry on making content or think about stepping away from this game. I'd still create content but probably for another hobby of mine, but ever since I've been creating there really hasn't been many days where drama or politics hasn't taken over my twitter feed. This forum has been a safe haven and I've met and talked to a lot of great people, but in all honesty the current situation is getting out of hand and it's hard to want to stay connected to a game with a community that is this problematic (again I'm talking about twitter not this forum or the people on it).

Its amazing that people you don't know or associate with can cause so much turmoil in a game you play with friends. The kitchen table players, casual players, and children that love this game are blissfully ignorant of whats going on, and I envy them for it. Honestly I started dreaming about the drama last night, even though it had zero effect on me, or so I thought.
 

2 hours ago, Lasraik said:

I try to remember why I play this game in the first place and all the great people I've met because of it.  The Twitter "community" is a small representation of the total number of players, most players don't know about this drama or who these YouTubers are; they just enjoy playing Magic.

Some stores just aren't inviting or full of cliques.  You're always going to have those players who aren't friendly, but I've thankfully found an LGS that is pretty welcoming.  When I go there it's people talking about what they've done the last week or the new deck they've built ect.  I credit @Magonista66 for helping foster that environment.

The rule I always try to follow is: don't be an asshole, treat everyone with respect.  One of my old bosses used to always tell me "be the change you want to see" and I used to think she just read it on a motivational poster somewhere but the older I get the more it makes sense.

But Lasraik is right. Harassment is going to occur to anyone in any situation. I in no way condone what happened this weekend, and being harassed strictly on your gender, sexual preference, race, religion etc etc is unacceptable, but no matter where you go, you're going to run into an asshole...in MTG, in sports, in school, work, everything. Being in the public eye facilitates this easier, unfortunately. Although anecdotal, I can 100% say that in my playgroup, no girl or minority has been harassed based on their identity. It wouldn't be allowed, by the playgroup or the current LGS we play at.

I feel like the community needs a Moderate voice. People would argue that TCC is that voice, but I think he already leans to the left, and even if not to the extreme, has been painted as such by the right. WotC and the creators they endorse all lean left, some to the extreme. If you have a game dominated by straight white males, and then have the loudest voices of the game (WotC, etc) say all straight white men are shit, what is going to happen? You get a sizeable amount of people who use MTG to escape the world, gettin shit on by the the Company that fuels there escape. They don't feel like they can rally behind TCC, Wedge, etc because they just got shit on by that "team". Enter Jeremy who leans right. A toxic right extremist, yet someone that still pushes back against the others. Thats where his following is. Now he is literally just pure shit and profits off harassment of his critics, but he still has the support of those that felt pushed out by the initial Left movement. 

If there was a moderate voice, that said "Hey, don't be an asshole. Play MTG. Girls, Guys, Blacks, Whites, Gays, Straights, Trans, just play MTG. I you have a beef with a group, don't play in public, play in your home. Don't prioritize one group over another. Just play MTG." and WotC got behind this moderate voice, then power would be taken away from both extremes, and de-politicalize the MTG community.

But this probably won't happen. The extremes will still be louder, and accuse the Moderate of being blind, or a cuck, or a bigot-sympathizer.

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8 hours ago, King of Jank said:

Your post was too long @Affinity for MTG. I want you the fuck out of my community.

I'm sick of the repeated targeted harassment!

 

 

1 hour ago, King of Jank said:

I feel like the community needs a Moderate voice.

Now you're sending me mixed messages. Do you want me out of the community or not?

 

 

1 hour ago, King of Jank said:

But this probably won't happen. The extremes will still be louder, and accuse the Moderate of being blind, or a cuck, or a bigot-sympathizer.

That seems to be the case with people like Boogie2988, who tends to be very moderate in his views and constantly faces criticism for not being angry/offended enough.

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23 hours ago, MTGZuby said:

I think at least Jeremy will be DCI banned from WoTC but other than that not sure what else WoTC could really do

Is there even a bannable offence involved? I wasn't really around when the guy who had a criminal record for sexual assault or something similar was banned, so I have no idea how that was justified. Is there something in the tournament rules that basically allows DCI bans for being an extremely unpleasant person?

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15 hours ago, Affinity for MTG said:

That seems to be the case with people like Boogie2988, who tends to be very moderate in his views and constantly faces criticism for not being angry/offended enough.

What's crazy is I'm seeing certain people in MTG now calling Boogie a white supremacist after the video he just made. Never been a fan of Boogie but after listening to an interview he did on the Not So Common Podcast, he seems far from being anything remotely like that, he's just afraid to take sides and that's a fault of his.

This whole thing has now gone so far away from it's original message that we're going to see and hear about this for a long while.

As far as banning Jeremy, WoTC could certainly claim it's due to the offensive tweets and videos Jeremy has produced similar to asscrack guy. 

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2 hours ago, MTGZuby said:

What's crazy is I'm seeing certain people in MTG now calling Boogie a white supremacist after the video he just made. Never been a fan of Boogie but after listening to an interview he did on the Not So Common Podcast, he seems far from being anything remotely like that, he's just afraid to take sides and that's a fault of his.

This whole thing has now gone so far away from it's original message that we're going to see and hear about this for a long while.

As far as banning Jeremy, WoTC could certainly claim it's due to the offensive tweets and videos Jeremy has produced similar to asscrack guy. 

They are going really hard at Boogie, and although I'm not a fan of his content either he seems like one of the kinder people on YouTube.  I don't think it's a fault of his for not taking sides, it's not worth it for a channel like his to take sides and get involved.  He's preaching a "pragmatic, diplomatic approach" (4:00 minutes into this video) and that's the best way to go imho.

They did set a precedent with the buttcrack guy, so banning Jeremy wouldn't be a shock.  But they have to be careful how they handle it, once they start banning people for bullying (true or not) prominent members of the "community" then where does it end?

JowQAhW.jpg

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Just now, Lasraik said:

They did set a precedent with the buttcrack guy, so banning Jeremy wouldn't be a shock.  But they have to be careful how they handle it, once they start banning people for bullying (true or not) prominent members of the "community" then where does it end?

And if we think it's reasonable for Wizards/the DCI to ban players for objectionable behaviour outside of the game, who should decide what qualifies as objectionable enough to deserve a ban? It really seems like a dangerous road to go down, judging and excluding people in that way tends to set precedents and lead to more and more judgement and exclusion

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Yeah, when Eric Froelich, the saltiest of all pros, wants to form a 'committee' (aka Thought Police Lynch Mob), the alarm bells go off. That said, MTGHeadquarters is clearly well beyond reproach, and his behaviour has affected quite a few people. It's not just his videos and other media, but the fact his army of alt-right trolls brigades these people with abuse.

As for Boogie... I used to watch him, and he is a very kind-hearted guy. His problem is that he always takes these tepid positions and refuses to really ever take a side. It’s kind of annoying that he’s so afraid of pissing anybody off that he won’t take a real stand on most any issue, even if it is obvious what side he is on.


That said, he doesn’t deserve this brigading. Notice how both the SJWs and Alt-right idiots have a ‘with us or against us’ mentality? The moment you don’t agree with them, they will attack you and harass you. This is the abusive behaviors Jeremy’s army of morons has put Sprankle and others through. 
 

 

 

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